Quran Quiz
Created on: August 9th, 2006
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Actually if you're referring to the Talmud, which is a collection of books, it does not say that Jews can cheat or subjugate non-Jews. A large portion of anti-Jewish polemic like that was claimed to be in the Talmud by folks like the Russian anti-Semite Paranis, but it doesn't actually occur. In contrary, all you have to do is look at countries like Saudi Arabia to see what the Koran teaches.
Most of these statements are wrong. Especially the bit about jews. Muslims are supposed to treat christians and jews with respect, as they are 'people of the book' i.e. they all worship the same god. Muslims didnt really start hating jews until the jews decided to start killing them and taking their land.
The statements are directly out of the Koran. The fact is, the Koran contradicts itself. It has places where it refers to treating Jews and Christians as 'Dhimmi' - tolerated second class citizens - and places where it says to destroy them all. Muslims pick and choose which ones they want to follow. One of the Surahs I listed is used in the charter of a notorious anti-Jewish terror group to justify suicide attacks against Jews, in fact.
How Arab states are right now is the product of the foreign policiies of Britain, the United States, and Israel for the past 50 years. Christians, jews, and muslims lived in the holy land in peace for a long time before that. Christians, jews, and romans have caused more problems than all the arab tribals combined
Sharia law is older than 50 years. Blaming Sharia law on Israel, the US, and the UK is absurd and lacks historical consciousness. Likewise, blaming Muslim angst toward Jews on the last 50 years of Israeli independence is a gross historical inaccuracy. The Koran records the first genocide of Jews by Muslims, where Mohammad removed the Jewish presence from Mecca and Medina on the reasoning that there can "only be one people in Arabia."
^The death toll of Jews at the hands of Muslims pre 20th century ranges from the high hundreds of thousands to the low millions. Since not once during this period did Jews own any Middle Eastern land, its impossible to blame this Islamic genocide on Jews. But alas, those with latent anti-Semitic feelings may attempt to blame the victims here.
Ok, now you're just horribly skewing the picture of how the middle east was pre 20 century. And apparantly anti-semetic feelings are making me say that? You can't hide behind it where none exists. I mean, goddamn, you spoke of some genocide of jews by muslims, why don't you talk about the caenonites man! ITS ALL A PACK OF LIES
While its questionable if a genocide of Canaanites ever happened at the hand of Hebrews, as this has no more evidence than other stories in the Bible, genocide of Jews at the hands of Muslims has happened very recently in history. The Grand Mufti al-Husseini, for example, visited with Eichmann and oversaw Jews being exterminated in gas chambers. Aside from Muslim support for the Nazi party and direct involvement with genocide of Jews there, we have records of genocide against Jews in virtually every decade
The vast majority of Germans did not know about genocide and would not have supported it. The rest of the populations of the world (not some sick bastard visiting) didn't know either. Hint: there were jews everywhere in the middle east even after the romans decentralized them. The vast portion of that history is jews being accepted all the way along to spain.
There isn't "active ethnic cleansing." Although, the Arab and liberal media would like you to believe such. And denying the Mufti's involvement in the gas chambers is actually a tactic of Arab holocaust denial. Though, its quite common knowledge. There was even a Palestinian Nazi Party that existed solely to support the extermination of Jews that was occuring.
Yes, the number of palestinian deaths directly or indirectly caused by the israeli government ranges from the mid hundreds of thousands to the low millions (from having their clean water supply being cut off, thus dirty water causing infections) If America was bombed to the stone age continously, alot of deaths from poor health would result
Actually the total number of deaths of Palestinians throughout the history of the State of Israel is lower than civilian casualties in the US occupation of Iraq. Just to get a picture of exactly where the statistics stand, the casualty rates for such a prolonged conflict in Israel are extremely low. They are just overplayed because they make good news stories.
Israel is not commiting genocide against palestinians, but it seems like that to people who have had all their wealth bombed to death, are kicked off their land for settlements, have relatives in concentration camps (yes there are concentration style camps, but aren't death camps, where palestinians are held)
There are no Israeli camps and there havn't been for years. Palestinains are held in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. They have not been allowed to settle in any of those countries, although they have been granted citizenship in Israel. This is why the terror group in Jordan "Black September" was formed to overthrow the dynasty.
You should stop supporting israel for its crimes, no matter how much you respect Judaism (or if you are jewish). THey've instigated and caused their share of conflicts and act like bullies. Everyone else in the world can see this truth. Israel has the right to exist, but not to cause so much destruction
Israel does not exclude people based on Palestinian ethnicity. There are many ethnic Palestinians (about 1/4 of the population of Israel) who are Israeli citizens. Israeli law protects equality of every race, religion, ethnicity, and gender. In addition, Palestinians were not displaced from the land by Israel, but by Egypt and Jordan during the '48 war when they annexed the land set aside for a Palestinian state.
Actually Israel doesn't claim ownership of the West Bank or Gaza. And as I stated, Israel doesn't discriminate based on ethnicity. Rather, Israeli law protects more stringently than US or UK law to the extent that even homosexuals have equal rights. Israeli law does what every other country does and does not allow non-citizen the same rights as citizens.
You seem to be pointing out stuff that other arab states did that don't seem to anger palestinians for some reason and are downplaying the very reasons why life is hell for palestinians. No one in the middle east is attacking Israel because they are anti-semites. (Anti-semites are attracted after the fact of the CAUSE.) Please admit to yourself that israel is hated by its neighboring countries for being a violent Neighbor.
And settlements began being built in areas of Jewish presence that predate the State of Israel, such as Hebron. To ask Jews to abandon settlements in areas where they have lived since the first century would be the real definition of ethnic cleansing. Yet, no one seems to pay as much attention to that point.
Actually settlements weren't developed by forcebly removing Palestinians. Even the Palestinians don't claim that. The big argument is that they were displaced in the '48 war, not via settlements. The argument against settlements is that they are suppossedly land grabs. Keep in mind, this was unoccupied land, not land that people were living on.
^And annexation is a legal issue surrounding territory. It is when one country claims the territory for itself. Israel hasn't done that, and has repeatedly offered to dismantle all settlements. It did just this in Gaza, and it is exactly what was offered to Arafat in 2000. Yet Arafat rejected it and was condemned even by the entire Arab world for rejecting such a fair deal.
Its like saying "Saudi Arabia would never allow a non-Muslim majority." The fact is, it isn't something that is really on the agenda and is only brought up as a propaganda tool by the far-right within Israel looking for hardline support and the far-left outside of Israel looking for an excuse to demonize it as racist.
You should also keep in mind that UN Resolution 242 does not require Israel to return all territory occupied, but rather an unspecified amount of territory. In a legal light, every offer Israel has made has been generous. Israel would be within its full legal right to annex 90% of Gaza and the West Bank and turn them into parking lots.
Actually no, you don't have to be a Jew to join the military. Jews are the only ethnic group that undergo manditory conscription. We have many Arab and Druze officers, in fact. And please, B'Tselem is a far-left Israeli 'human rights' groups that associates with other Jewish groups such as Neturei Karteh that call for the destruction of Israel. Its nothing short of a pro-Arab propaganda center. Using B'Tselem as a source demonstrates a real lack of aptitude in Israeli affairs
Equal rights and equal responsibilities are two different things. Because one group undergoes manditory conscription while the other does not does not mean that one is not affored equal privledges under the law. If anything, the group that had to undergo more restrictions in this case would be Jews. Yet, the anti-Israel crowd never argues "Jews are discriminated against because they get conscripted and others don't!" Jews in Israel actually do make this argument, but critics' double standard does not.
And no, the Jewish Virtual Library isn't an Israeli govt site. And saying "If you have a problem with B'Tselem, refute the arguments" is like saying "If you have a problem with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, refute the arguments." Its an extremist propaganda group. It isn't a credible source to begin with.
Numerous countries worldwide have laws like Israel's Right of Return. However, without doing research first, I bet you couldn't name one. This is because Israel's law is singled out due to an anti-Israel bias. Laws for citizenship based on ethnicity are extremely common and do not compromise equality of citizens; they only dictate methods of becoming citizens.
I wonder how you could single out Yisrael Beitenu, which calls for giving up land to form a Palestinian state, while ignoring the fact that Hamas, a group which calls for the genocide of Jews worldwide in its charter, was elected by a majority. It goes to demonstrate the double standard that you have in your anti-Semitic hate for Israel.
However, you also wrote "I for one, support any and all measures taken up
by the Palestinians to defend their land." This is an extremist approach. Most Arabs do not support all methods. Rather, the "any and all methods" are the ones used by a minority. Most Arabs support a two state solution, and most Arabs supported the offer to Arafat. You're a classic example of attempting to be more Palestinian than the Palestinians.
If you really supported Palestine, you would support what a majority of Palestinians and Arabs support - a two state solution and a cessation to terrorist attacks against civilians. Rather, you work against the interests of Palestinians with the extremist approach of supporting the "any and all methods" that are used by the vast minority.
There isn't a single Palestinian refugee alive whose family has lived on that land for "hundreds of years." The majority of Palestinian refugees are non-native to Palestine, and immigrated after Jewish settlement made the land ariable and raised standards of living. In fact, the UN redefined the term "refugee" in the Palestinian context to mean someone who had simply lived on the land for a 2 year period of time. A European who had lived in Palestine for 2 years would be a "Palestinian refugee."
Arafat's rejection of the 2000 proposal, which gave a contigious state with 96% of the Occupied Territories, was called "a crime against the Arab people" by Prince Bandar. The lead negotiator Dennis Ross, Bill Clinton, the President of Egypt Hosni Mubarak, Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah II of Jordan, Mohammed IV of Morocco, Zine of Tunsia, etc. all supported the offer.
In addition, a survey conducted during the negotiations demonstrated that a majority of the Palestinian people wanted Arafat to accept. This is why Prince Bandar called it a "crime against the region" and "a crime against the Arab people." The vast majority of the Arab world thought it was reasonable. Arafat was the exception, he rejected it due to what Bandar also called "rejectionist terror policies."
Other countries that have ethnic right of return laws like Israel: Greece, Armenia, Bulgaria, India, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Finland, China, Philippines. In addition, international law has many aspects that support ethnic right to return to any country such as UN Resolution 194. Its the vast minority, rather than the majority, that believes Laws of Return are discriminatory.
"Laws that exclude a person from citizenship based on
ethnicity are wrong no matter what." Just to clarify further. There are no Israeli laws that exclude citizenship based on ethnicity. There are laws that make citizenship easier based on ethnicity. There is a difference. Any person can become a citizen by naturalization, but only those of a specific ethnic background are eligable to immigrate to their ethnic homeland.
On the citizenship issue, it might also be worth noting that Israel gives citizenship to hundreds/thousands of Palestinians yearly that are fleeing from the Occupied Territories or neighboring Arab countries due to being persecuted for being homosexual, not being Muslim, breaking other social mores (which gets them killed frequently) or not supporting radical terror groups. Israel has open doors for any Arab in the Arab world fleeing persecution.
Absentee land owners were just that. Absentee. They owned unairable land in Palestine and sold it to Jewish settlers between the 1850s and 1940s. Owning the land doesn't equal living on it. After Jews settled the land, it caused a huge increase in Arab immigration. Palestinians havn't lived on that land any longer than Jews have.
"Forcibly removing Palestinians, or simply moving ones own civilian
population to occupied territory is illegal." For one, to be "illegal" under international law Israel must be a signatory to that section of the Geneva conventions. It isn't. Secondly, they state that the transfer of civilians in or out is illegal. Israel has never transferred civilians, civilians have moved of their own will.
Lord Caradon, "We didn't say there should be a withdrawal to the '67 line; we did not put the 'the' in, we did not say all the territories, deliberately.. We all knew - that the boundaries of '67 were not drawn as permanent frontiers, they were a cease-fire line of a couple of decades earlier... We did not say that the '67 boundaries must be forever."
George Brown, "The phrasing of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN Security Council...The proposal said 'Israel will withdraw from territories that were occupied', and not from 'the' territories, which means that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories."
"Anybody who looks at that map can see that it was in no way contiguous." You're confusing the original proposal with the final proposal. The original proposal, the starting offer, was not contigious. The final offer was a fully contigious state. And it was hailed as generous by the entire Arab world, and accepted by the majority of the Palestinian population. Arafat was in a minority position by rejecting it and condemned as a criminal by the Arab world for doing so.
"Show me a country that has a law that states that if your ancestors came from there but were not of the majority ethnicity, that you cannot return." Israel doesn't have a law that states any ethnic group can't return. Both Jews and Arabs can become citizens. There are simply different processes for citizenship. And every country I listed plus dozens more have similiar laws, including the United States and the UK.
"Every Israeli in occupied land is a legitimate target. And every Israeli
that supports the stealing of land is a legitimate target as well" - This is the type of extremism I'm talking about. On one hand, you attempt to say "Israel is breaking the law" then on the other hand you advocate that any Israeli who even supports occupying land is a legitimate target, which is clearly illegal as targetting civilians. Even most Arabs do not support such extremism. This is why you don't really support Palestine.
Actually according to modern statistics less than 2,000 families were displaced due to sales from absentee land owners. Those stats come from the Israeli govt and pro-Palestinian historians like Benny Morris, in addition to leading Middle Easte historians such as Mitchell Bard. The real displacement was a result of the '48 war, not Jewish immigration or land sales pre-1948. And the reason they were displaced in '48 was because Jordan and Egypt invaded the land set aside for a Palestinian state, annexed it..
..and then drove the refugee Palestinians into camps along the Gaza-Egypt, Lebanon, Syrian, and Jordanian borders. Even today, the majority of Palestinian refugees, as well as the worst camps, are on Egyptian and Jordanian soil. I think I pointed out that the Black September group arose out of a Jordanian camp to overthrow the Hashemites. And btw, here is a map of the congtious state offered to Arafat that he rejected: http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/fmeptaba1.gif
Something else you should realize is that during WW2 the allied forces did not target civilians as policy. Oft people confuse collateral damage and civilian deaths with targetting civilians. They are two different things. What the terror groups such as Hamas do is target civilians. Specifically, they target ethnic Jewish civilians. There is no military or strategic goal in mind except to put pressure by means of casualty rates on civilians.
Likewise today, Israel does not target civilians. Many civilians die as a result of Israeli actions, that can't be denied. However, a review of the statistics from the intifada will demonstrate that Palestinians actually kill a higher percentage of civilians than military targets. The point is that deliberate attacks on civilians are not the same as collateral damage. Not morally, and not legally. What these terrog roups do is the former, what Israel today and the Allies in WW2 did is the latter.
"You want to exterminate the Palestinians and take their land for your own." - Interestingly enough, I've been advocating the moderate two-state solution while you've been advocating Islamic extremism and terrorism against Jews. I've been advocating working with in international law, while you ignore it unless it seems to suit your agenda for demonizing Israel. I've been standing behind a liberal democracy that has equal rights for every citizen, while you've been standing behind a terror group that...
...openly calls for the genocide of Jews worldwide. You're an extremist. So it doesn't shock me that you would use extremist hyperboile such as "You and those who think like you are just like the Nazis." But just remember, it was you who adovocated anti-Semitic hate crimes against Jewish settlers and even those who gave moral support to settlers. This situation reminds me of the Palestinian Nazi Party, which while literally supporting Nazis would call Israelis "Nazis" to slander them.
Every time you state something dubious at best you claim it "isn't debated" or that its an "indisputable fact." Tokyo firebombings were directed against general infrastructure, not civilians. However, due to the indiscriminate nature civilians were killed and those tacticcs would later be made illegal under international law. Much like Palestinian terror tactics are illegal under international law, indiscriminate, and immoral. The difference is that civilians, while killed en masse, were not the target...
...in Tokyo, while Palestinian terrorists target Jews worldwide. Groups like Hamas have carried out attacks on Jews and non-Jews not just in Israel or in the Occupied Territories, but in countries with no hostilities toward Israel like Egypt. Its a global terrorist group that states, quite unequivocally in its charter, that its intention is to kill every Jew worldwide. You can't compare that to any incident in WW2 except the Nazi Holocaust.
Likewise, your argument that Israelis "take land" when Palestinian terror stops is baseless. When Gaza was completely evacuated, terror increased tenfold out of Gaza. The occupation actually creates a statistical reduction of terror. And no, you don't really support a two-state solution based on the '67 lines, nor do your really support the Palestinian people. You support a minority group of extremists rather than the general wishes of the Palestinian people. You're a classic case of a Westerner ...
...attempting to be more Palestinian than the Palestinians. What you've advocated here is illgal, terrorist, and extremist. It is contrary to international law, general common morals, and the wishes of the general Palestinian population. In addition, only the Palestinian extremists and their advocates preach that there is unequal rights in Israel. Laws exist on the books ensuring equal rights and Arab Knesset members are directly elected by the Arab population in Israel. You've yet to demonstrate in any...
...way that it is less than a true democracy. Your only argument, which you were wrong about, was that Arabs weren't allowed in the military. Then when you were corrected you had to change it to the fact that only Jews are conscripted. This is something that is debated as being unfair for the Jewish population, not something that is used as ammo by anti-Semites like yourself. You seem to be working backwards here.
^Also keep in mind a substantial percentage of the Palestinian population does not want '67 borders. Virtually all Arab towns on the OT side unanimously support borders outside of the '67 line. It isn't uncommon to see Arab border towns with Israeli flags hoisted and that express uncharacteristic support for Israel compared to those further inside. The reason is because they want to be within Israeli borders when they are finally drawn so that they can become citizens. They want to live in a democracy...
...where equal rights are guarnateed for every ethnic group by law, where they can directly elect who they want to Knesset, and where they can enjoy a higher standard of living as Israeli citizens rather than living in an Islamic Fascist state run by Sharia. Altough, since you support the terrorists and their illegal tactics, I'm sure you would rather these Palestinian towns become part of an Islamic Fascist state run by Sharia rather than Israeli towns and citizens, as they would choose.
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