tea for the tillerman
posted by max on April 15, 2007 at 05:15:39 PM
Lately I can't help but feel the content on YTMND is just lacking in general. I know that no matter how many nifty new features I add , this won't really improve.
As a lot of you know, the algorithms that define the front page content boxes are extremely simple and don't use most of the treasure trove that is the 180 million row YTMND database. I've been looking at white papers for “Item-based Collaborative Filtering Recommendation Algorithms”, and it's fairly obvious my complete lack of college-level math is beginning to catch up to me.
I'm looking for (as futile as it may be) some aspiring statisticians or economics majors that want to come up with some creative ways to highlight good content. Since the redesign of the front page, adding new content boxes is extremely easy and I've yet to really spend any time on coming up with new algorithms.
Anyone interested in the slightest, head on over to the wiki and add some comments or come up with your own ideas for new content box algorithms.
Another thing I've been thinking about lately is cleaning up the userbase. While the mod panel is still a ways off, I have been thinking about ways to make the site better by adding some exclusivity somehow.
Some variation of the following: making the site invite only, making it so only registered users can view ytmnd (huge reduction in hosting costs), plastering ads on YTMNDs for non-registered users, deleting all the sites and starting over, etc.
I'd say we should could have a conversation about this in the comments, but since most of the users never post anything in news comments except pure shit, I don't see the use.
*EDIT*: Also worth looking at: I finally got around to writing a Vote Weighting Algorithm
As a lot of you know, the algorithms that define the front page content boxes are extremely simple and don't use most of the treasure trove that is the 180 million row YTMND database. I've been looking at white papers for “Item-based Collaborative Filtering Recommendation Algorithms”, and it's fairly obvious my complete lack of college-level math is beginning to catch up to me.
I'm looking for (as futile as it may be) some aspiring statisticians or economics majors that want to come up with some creative ways to highlight good content. Since the redesign of the front page, adding new content boxes is extremely easy and I've yet to really spend any time on coming up with new algorithms.
Anyone interested in the slightest, head on over to the wiki and add some comments or come up with your own ideas for new content box algorithms.
Another thing I've been thinking about lately is cleaning up the userbase. While the mod panel is still a ways off, I have been thinking about ways to make the site better by adding some exclusivity somehow.
Some variation of the following: making the site invite only, making it so only registered users can view ytmnd (huge reduction in hosting costs), plastering ads on YTMNDs for non-registered users, deleting all the sites and starting over, etc.
I'd say we should could have a conversation about this in the comments, but since most of the users never post anything in news comments except pure shit, I don't see the use.
*EDIT*: Also worth looking at: I finally got around to writing a Vote Weighting Algorithm
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Like any artistic community, YTMND will go through phases, dry spells, exploration. You have to trust what is being created here. I would focus less on "lack of teh funny" and try to make things better and more efficient. A better algorithim for voting/weight/what gets on front page is a good start.
A Handful of Notions: YTMND "Unsung Heroes" - Sites with relatively high average ratings (say, at least 3 stars) and a low number of views. YTMND "Crate Diggers" - Sites with low rankings and low views, hand picked by moderators as worthy of attention. YTMND "Gallery of Fine Arts" - Mod-chosen artistic or non-comedic sites of merit, without consideration to star ranking as good stuff that's not funny frequently gets downvoted. YTMND "Freeze Frame" - Best new sites without animation.
here's a few random ideas. Delete new sites with less than fifty views after a week. delete sites with different titles but the same content. Clean up the Worthwile section, and make only the new YTMNDs on the home page viewable to non members. Viewing anything else would require a login. I have a feeling that when the mods come out and play and get a few of the abuser's accounts deleted, then alot of junk sites will go away. Just a few random suggestions.
After pondering it some more, you could also make YTMNDs like Digg stories: after x amount of days (for Digg its one day, but YTMND is smaller) the YTMND falls off the front page, no matter what. While many times every day there are new "top viewed" YTMNDs, this would prevent sites like "Epic Mount" from staying in top viewed for months (hopefully not).
Similarly to Digg, new websites that enter top viewed often times are the result of having friends vote and view their sh*t. If, however, a site gets 1'd (or buried in the case of digg) enough times after entering the top viewed, it will fall off the front page quicker than a site in top viewed that gets many 5's (or Diggs again in the case of Digg).
How about this for a feature.... make a block for the lowest rated sites (rating and chron, so the oldest site with a "1" rating is at the top of the list) and then let users vote on whether to DELETE the sites on the list.... keep 'em there for 24 hrs and if the delete votes prevail, trash 'em.... that's as good a method as any for sorting....
Also, MAKE ALL THE CATS (especially recently created & up and coming) show TOP 15 PLEASE!!
No off site linking. Automatic deletion sites rated below 2 for a month. Selling TShirts with the YTMND logo (I want one, id buy when available). Automatic account flagging on users with 50% comments the same or 80% votes the same. Alt purge. Automatic removal of most viewed ytmnd if its there for 90%+ of 3weeks (cant be 100, or daily will get knocked off and put back on). Weighted voting is good. Collapsible reply sections (Will promote legitimate replies).
Also, Shared resources. If it hasnt been done already, put in an algorithm to automatically share resources between sites, and once sites using it reaches 0, removes resource. This will not only reduce server side storage, it will reduce downloads (users caching stuff, cache servers getting more hits).
Links to social bookmarking sites, possibly with forced advertisements if referrer is off site.
delete all the sites and start over.
then, only allow a select few back on, so we have some quality sites as a base. then, implement the moderators
after that, start allowing people back in slowly, while keeping an eye on the sites and setting standards on what is good and what is bad
(funny = good , effort = good , ear rape = bad).
once good has been properly established in the community, throw the doors back open, with liberal use of ads and donations to mitigate the costs.
Part of what makes YTMND special is the LACK of exclusivity. If you make it a pain in the *ss to introduce friends to YTMND by making said friends sign up, YTMND will get less exposure. And while that will lower hosting costs, it will also create a feeling of isolation. I recommend instead of making YTMND more exclusive, simply delete sites that maintain a one star or lower rating for a certain amount of time automatically.
Going back to KaneRobot's mention of paid membership, were it possible, I would not suggest: 1) Making current users pay - this wouldl be faced with extreme opposition from a large group of users if they had to pay to continue using the site. 2) Making it a monthly payment - one initial payment ($10?) to join up for each new member would still provide valuable income to fund your efforts. Perhaps with time a small monthly payment scheme will be plausible, depending on YTMND's strength.
Oh, and if any payment scheme ever comes into action, don't make it so non-members have to pay just to view sites. That'll really grind down the numbers. They'll feel like I did when the site was down in 2004 when I first visited and every site came up with YOU'RE THE MAN NOW DOG.COM. They'll go "Huh?", leave and forget about it like I did until I ran into it again in 2005.
I was thinking more of a 1-time fee ($10-ish) for site creation & weighted voting privleges...some people are such vote whores that they'd likely pay for it, even if they didn't want to make their own sites. Maybe other minor perks too like front-page skins or getting to use the mysterious "lists" page for something. Of course, the $10 is non-refundable if you get banned for being an annoying prick (feel free to keep signing up and getting banned if you enjoy pumping a lot of money into the YTMND economy).
I know Max said in the past that if you donated more than a certain amount you would get in "free" if paid features were ever introduced, so assuming that holds up many people wouldn't even have to do anything. Of course, introducing paid membership can also introduce a whole new set of problems that may not want to be dealt with. I just figure it's time Max starts bleeding these f*cking WoW dipsh*ts to pay for some of the site costs if they want to stink up the interwebs with their nonsense.
I think that a good way to clean the site up a bit and keep the sh*t sites down and out of sight would be to have all ytmnd's that don't get over a 3 average rating, might as well be deleted after 24 hours of their creation. They are hardly ever seen again and are infinitly lost in the raging sea of other terrible ytmnds. We have a hard time as it is getting 10 new ytmnds in the Up and Coming each day and maybe the deletion of bad sites will stop people from posting them knowing they'll be lost in a day.
Who doesn't respect inkdrinker?
picture/sound/text ftw
but that's besides the point.
I'm hardly an elitist.
People like MasterSitsu and others are a prime example of elitism.
What's killing ytmnd is sh*tty sites and people who act like they belong along with guest views contributing to the whole makeup of the frontpage. Making YTMND member only will only ruin the site further and deleting all the old sites will simply erase what was left of the days before this place went downhill.
I like the idea of spamming non-registered people with ads. That way rather than shutting out the 'now and then' users you make money off them. I mean, there are a lot of people(WoW-fans for instance) who don't like ytmnd in general, they just like funny WoW jokes using YTMND as a medium. In this case, you wouldn't want to shut them out exactly... but, making some extra cash wouldn't be too bad. Maybe an ad border around the actual YTMND if you're not logged in?
Registered people will still have ads on the main page, and people who come often enough that they feel it necessary to register are the people who shouldn't be subject to ads as frequently. If a person is just coming to view ONE ytmnd that was randomly linked to them, then they're not going to view the main page but they ARE going to impact the bandwidth usage and cost Max a lot of money(that is, the percentage of people like this is high and the money they generate is low)
but, if these people who are currently costing YTMND money were to be the ones earning the money(IE- a small border of ads around an actual YTMND page if you're not logged in) then YTMND would do much better, and Max wouldn't mind these one-time users as much. However, the frequent users who view the main page daily will be generating revenue by viewing the smaller text ads there(the same as we do now, subtle yet effective. We each pay for ourselves.)
Eh,... get it? :)
I support the invite-only idea. It might not seem effective, but every invite-only website that I have used has had a better community than sites that allow anyone to sign up. It would also--hopefully--prevent YTMNDs from dominating the "Top Viewed" #1 spot for months (e.g. How to Prank a Telemarketer).
pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure sh*t pure
Honestly Max, whatever you do I stand by you. But I like the idea of deleting all sites under 1.99 or something like that. Why not have something like Newgrounds flash portal where everything that comes in has to be judged to be decided on whether we keep it or not..but yes you should just take a break for a bit. You have my respect either way.
Mixing two of your ideas for a simple suggestion: If you're unregistered and trying to look at YTMND, you'll get nothing but ads. Sorta like what you had. But without the YTMND. Another variant of this idea is while you get a site with ads, you'll only get a preview screen if you're unregistered. I think this is one of the best ways to reduce costs and possibly bring in ad revenue.
Whatever it takes to keep it free. I like the idea of removing sites with 2 stars or less, but only if they've been around for too long. "This site has had a score of two for six months now... DELETED!" etc. That way it gives good sites a chance to recover from a sever downvoting (not that they will, but there is the possibility). I also like the idea of ads being more prominent for unregistered users (like an entire ad page before every fifth YTMND or a full page ad once per day per unregistered IP.
Weight votes based on the usual votes. Presume that users would most frequently vote on a bell curve, so users who have skewed vote spreads vote for less than a whole vote, while users who fit a more fair balance have a "heavier" vote. Perhaps add bonuses for average site rating, to inspire people to make sites worth 5'ing.
one ytmnder one vote, a weighting system would be abused and lead to cronyism, elitism and would damage the democratic values which current ytmnder's enjoy. any vote weighting would be abused and would stifle creativity and innovation as new ideas and fads become subject to the powerful voters prejudices. the current voting system is good because it is very organic and natural, good sites tend to get recognition, bad ones tend to get downvoted. dont let the minority of alt account makers destroy this.
also; deleting all the sites below a threshold would remove act as a good spring clean of the old sites, but if it became a permanent policy would inevitably lead to greater upvoting as people try to push sites above the deletion threshold. this would unfairly skew the voting system and make it harder to discern between good and bad ytmnds based upon score. this is clearly bad for the site and should be avoided if it was more than a one time only event.
on the issue of making it harder to register, either by financial means or through some kind of test. a balance must be struck because for every X number of "bad" users prevented from joining a Y number of creative and original users will also be prevented from joining . ytmnd's needs the new ideas and innovation of new users and by placing barriers to this it will inevitably lead to a stifling of ytmnd.
The best way for quality is a positive insentive for the users to create something good. Whatever that may be. Deletion of poor/dire sites is one way to save money and space, and yet another push in the right direction for better sites. The addition of exclusiveness may be a pinnacle the positive insentive idea made earlier, but may also act as a deterrent for many people for fear of "elitism" and being excluded - Non-famous users such as myself would fit into this catagory
Invites, no. It'd block some talented people who just aren't well-known. In my opinion, you can only prevent crappy sites by making it harder to create sites. Charging money for it is, for instance, a good idea. You pay for the server space/traffic you generate with your site, and people who want to make a "lol, my friend richard is teh suck in this pic" site get deterred from making one.
Viewing should remain public, for non-registered, non-paying users. Being able to link to a YTMND to some forum allowing it to get some laughs is a great way to attract new users. I think requiring that only paying users can -make- YTMND's will help weed out a lot of crap, whilst still keeping the site easily accessible for a lot of people, generating more ad revenue and potentially bringing in new, talented users willing to pay to create a site.
---- YTMND2 BETA. start from their.. transplant all good sites.. then go from their.
---- Useful/noticeable users should be re welcomed.
---- Pay a one time fee for Bonus Features?
---- If you do an invite thing, you should also consider "Open registrations only one time a week or month"...
---- blah blah sh*t poo.
Excuse me if this seems like a rant, but I'm just putting my ideas out (coincidentaly, that's what I think YTMND is, in essence) The site seems to have evolved from a showcase for creativity into a clipdump bedlam. Somehow, we need to encourage a 'look at this and tell me what you think' mentality, instead of 'V0AT! V0AT UP! M3 4M YOO53R!!11!1'. Not sure if that'll help, just thinking aloud, er, atype, whatever.
Exclusivity sounds like an option. Works for SA.
Win is not guaranteed, since HC fans of the site(even those who make sh*t for ytmnds, maybe I'm included here)might tag along-problem unsolved. Also, purging ytmnd of all sites could be a bad idea IMO since I and a lot of other members, I'm sure, identify with old memes/sites in some nerdy way(Blood of site and reasons we came here). A clean slate might also worsen wiki & would make me not want to pay, though I may be unimportant
/BollIsF*g&SupportsChoiceYay
This might seem a bit mad.
What if people could host their own YTMNDs?
If, instead of Submitting stuff onto a subdomain of ytmnd.com, the Create-A-Site page gives you back html (badge included), for you to put wherever you like, and send to your friends.
Then you can google "intitle:ytmnd", and you have an entire web of ytmnds with none of the problems. And google ranks it for you. Then use the google api for ytmnd.com homepage top lists.
A lot of people want good ytmnd's that "slipped through the cracks" when they were created to get another chance on the front page. I think this is a good idea but, if implemented, they need to be showcased in a way that lets people know that these aren't new creations - lest they all get downvoted to hell by the seething horde that doesn't look at creation dates. Weighted voting could be a good idea that might encourage more accurate voting patterns if it can't be cheated/abused.
Max, you're absolutly right about the content lacking. I remember back when there were extremely talented users who created exceptional gifs to a perfectly edited sound clip and they were histerical, but now its just like ... okay what is this supposed to be? I think the users really need to put more thought into their ideas before posting their websites. We need our original well-known members to be active and produce gems again. Maybe they moved on and dont visit YTMND as much. We just need good material
This is true. Site preview sometimes means the difference between thumbnail tubgirl and full screen tubgirl. Also, is it necessary to put the thumbnail in the "report a site" window AND verification window? I know you don't actually WANT people reporting sites, but having to see some of that discusting *ss sh*t three times in order to report it...? Gratuitous.
"Guys. This is cyberman (aka Va-Van uhh, in Birmingham, Alabama; fromStickam, and also known as cyberman2 on youtube. You're probably wondering why I'm dressed up like this. Today. Well, I'm going to a uh, let's just say my sister's 'citizen's police academy' um 'function', uh, 'graduation' actually later on this evening. But that's beside the point. For too long you guys have had your fun, uhh, taking over people's chat rooms and raiding them. Guess what guys? Your home's about to be raided by the cops."
Invite only, only registered can view, and deleting all sites are all inadvisable. Invite only might turn it into a very small, clique only site completely cut off from the public. Then, what is the point making a ytmnd if it might only be seen by a few people and can't be seen by outsiders? On the other hand, invites could propogate exponentially anyway until it ceases to be of any usefullness in restricting users. Gmail is by invite only, and how many people can't get a gmail account if they want one?
Still taking suggestions? I wonder if you even read these.. but I've got one, and I hope it hasn't already been mentioned I didn't read through all the comments - mainly because half of them were posted by retards, which brings me to my suggestion. Two separate sites. YTMND and YTMND Jr. The main site will be a pay site.. I'm not suggesting much, maybe a buck or two a month, but it would require a credit card or paypal account, both of which deter the little sh*ts from lying about their ages.
Maybe some of the kids can still be a part of the main site, but they'd need a sponsor, a paid member. It's not fair to keep all the minors out, there are a lot of them with actual talent. But this way YTMND Jr can handle all the "OMG CHEEZ WIZ I'M SO RANDOM LOL" sites. As far as viewing, I'd suggest anyone can still view any site, but only paid members can vote/comment/create.
Deleting all sites... throws everything out, bad with good. If only bad stuff seems to coming in now, if you throw it all out, all good stuff of the past will be gone, and only bad new sites will fill it in. Not to mention that many new users like me came well after ytmnd was created, and are still coming, so fads seen as old and stale are actually seen as hilarious and fresh to them. Might I suggest an editor to go through and make lists of editor's picks for that day, or that week, and so on.
Also, maybe the entire database of sites can be divided into blocks and slowly rotated daily into a special area for mass voting. Any sites that end up with below 2 stars could potentially be cut. Again, I advise against invites, registered only to view, or mass deletions. Those things also can cut deeply into traffic and ergo ad revenue. That is if ad revenue for extra traffic outpaces the cost.
Also, there is an undercurrent of anger and shunning for people who sponsor their own sites. That should change, as it seems like a good way to generate income for the site. Unforunately, there are a number of incredibly mean people on the site. BTW, I am an economics major, and price is often a great tool and should be up for consideration for implementin on various features. Oh, and what of the "classic ytmnd" check box? Will a classic ytmnd section be created?
Max. GucheHair should catch your attention when you first see this comment. I know that you wont take it seriously and consider it another whiny complaint, but this is serious. He used many alts, approximately 20-40, to downvote one of our great sites, NES of a down. He is destroying the one list that defines "Hey look, new, funny, and fresh content that you can enjoy laughing at" and that you can come back everyday to find more. The first thing you can do to save this site is delete him. Thats it.
Vote weighting, while a good idea is destined for failure. This just means that certain "established groups" of users could band together (vent, etc) to downvote or upvote content into oblivion that doesn't deserve such fates.
Making so only registered users could view would be a similar disaster, as it destroys the "send a ytmnd link to a friend" aspect that makes the site so great.
"making the site invite only, making it so only registered users can view ytmnd (huge reduction in hosting costs), plastering ads on YTMNDs for non-registered users, deleting all the sites and starting over, etc."
all good ideas, but you should keep any site with like 4 or more stars (like picard! you cant delete picard!!:"{)
Who knows if anyone will read this, but all I can say is make the view count for ytmnds only go up when viewed by a registered account. Also IP address anyone who makes more than one account on a computer, or opened a different account from that same computer. That way only something like a school computer lab could be made to mass downvote/upvote. Just picture how silly/stupid that person would look like trying to hog them all.
Yes, making it so only registered users can view YTMND would be a huge reduction in hosting costs. Of course, that would be because a comparatively small amount of people would even bother with YTMND. How much media will be writing articles about the site if they and/or most of their readers won't see anything? How appealing will advertising on YTMND be when most people don't even bother to look at it? Exclusivity isn't a good thing.
I didnt read the whole comment list so Im sorry in advance if this has already been suggested.
why not do a invite unless you want to pay for it sort of deal? current members with a year or so on YTMND should keep there accounts and be given X number of ivites (like Goolge did with GMail). If someone wants an account and dosent have an invite then they should be given the option of a one time fee. Im not saying it will fix eveything but it my curb the cost a bit, without much risk of losing current members
you prolly wont read this but
i think starting over is a good idea. give people a couple week's notice and anyone who really wants to keep their site can just save it. wiping everything clean would give it a good start, and introducing those new rules you suggested would help immensely with all the crap constantly being made.
you will probably want to make a section of the 'best' sites that is public if you make the site viewable by users only. that will maintain the success and influx of new people
HEY MAX THIS IS A SRS COMMENT FOR ONCE OKAY YOU'D BETTER READ IT!!! (plz) right, you see how they have "f*ggot patrol" on the NSFW forums..... how about having something similar for the frontpage? not rainbow-gays in c*ck-hammocks, i mean like account restrictions & so on - limit people in their votes, making sites, making comments, etc until they stop sh*tting up the site? YEAH SO CARRY ON NOW DON'T FORGET IT'S ReallyF*ckingFaturday NOW SO MAKE YOUR UNFUNNY IMG-MACROS BEFORE 4CHAN DOES OKAY!!!
I think someone already suggested this but mandatory advertisement viewing before each ytmnd can be seen for unregistered users might help with the costs from sites like telemarketer. Membership tiers could also help alleviate some of the crap. New users can view sites and vote, but can't create sites for a few months, let them put some thought into what they want to create by seeing the occasionally good ytmnd and most of the sh*t that gets made.
Once they can make sites, limit the total number they can make, say ten total. If they can’t make anything decent after ten attempts then they’ll have to delete a site before they can make another one. If they happen to create a gem though (X many votes and views and a rating over Y) then their site cap gets bumped up (to twenty, fifty, or whatever number seems fit).
Total site cap could also be bumped on users that have used all ten site slots and maintain a rating over X while having over Y votes with at least Z views. Paid members (assuming this isn’t tiered as well) can bypass the time limit to make sites but are still capped on the total they can create for a while. I’m just tossing out ideas here, and this has probably all been suggested before.
I've always supported (or was I the one recommending? I can't remember) the idea of a membership YTMND that was exclusive for (at the very least) creation of sites. It would have multiple effects if you put a $10-15 yearly membership fee on all accounts that create sites: 1)Lower bandwidth costs, 2)Higher concentration of quality sites [who wants to spend money on crap?], 3)More money for YTMND in addition to those lower expenses, & 4)You can still leave unregistered/unpaid viewers with ad-infestation.
Invite only.. Who do you plan on inviting? Anyone with a good record or just the "famous" people?
Paid Accounts - Yeah great idea let's lose 50% of our decent userbase cuz we decided to make them pay..
Deleting All content - Someone would probobly assassinate you (read. BAD F*CKING IDEA)
Registration Only - YES! Make everyone register otherwise they get a screen saying with cyborg ninja saying "You have no name.. Register." And then after they register explain why they had to.
Also, Mod team that cares and doesn't just want to be important, IP bans (4chan has it and the only way to get passed is a proxy which the kiddies won't know about) Pay for Unban - the decent users will pay to be unbanned, the kiddies will just say "f*ck that", you make money, GOOD END.
Basically, if you want to be hated and fail miserably, make it pay-to-register and delete everything. And invite sounds lame
ANYPLACE that allows ANYONE with a computer, a hook-up and a singular misfiring neuron is bound to be filled with dreck. It is inevitable. The only question is, can there be a systemic manner to filter the dreck such that it does not interfere with the original intent. You need to ask yourself about this. You indicated that you did not intend YTMND as a community, but it has evolved into one. Now you look upon what you hath wrought and despair, so your original intent has obviously shifted. Until you decide
well adding a filter that will delete sites that have no use other then waste space would be great. (like the recent sites of people just exposing themselves to get vote. all i have to say to that is wow your creative) how about we make some way to empower some of the users. i notice this +/- for the comments. i would have to say that only people who actually put something into their posts get + all the stupid posts get - this +/- could be a way of defining how someone would gain power.